I just learned that Embarcadero Technologies didn't want us to do a talk about Smart Mobile Studio during the upcoming Dutch PasCon event. Something about a "competing product". Seriously! EMB doesn't even have a client-side web-dev tool in their portfolio! IMHO, SmartMS is just another tool in the Object Pascal toolbox. It fills an empty gap, and it is definitely not a threat to Delphi. It's a win-win combination.
I just learned that Embarcadero Technologies didn't want us to do a talk about Smart Mobile Studio during the upcoming Dutch PasCon event. Something about a "competing product". Seriously! EMB doesn't even have a client-side web-dev tool in their portfolio! IMHO, SmartMS is just another tool in the Object Pascal toolbox. It fills an empty gap, and it is definitely not a threat to Delphi. It's a win-win combination.
But that makes me wonder: How do you see Smart Mobile Studio in the landscape of Pascal tools?
Is it a bastard and a threat to Delphi? Should EMB sweep the table and make a JavaScript compiler themselves? Should we pick up the battle and go "all in" for a Smart LLVM solution?
I believe that more tools and more options will generate more users and a better community. In fact, that was one of the main reasons for us to create Smart - to contribute to the Delphi community...
But that makes me wonder: How do you see Smart Mobile Studio in the landscape of Pascal tools?
Is it a bastard and a threat to Delphi? Should EMB sweep the table and make a JavaScript compiler themselves? Should we pick up the battle and go "all in" for a Smart LLVM solution?
I believe that more tools and more options will generate more users and a better community. In fact, that was one of the main reasons for us to create Smart - to contribute to the Delphi community...
SLLVM would be very interesting... the fact that they don't like it tells me that they are afraid of what can come up next, go for it all the way!! (:
ReplyDeleteYou should ignore what emb wants and doing!
ReplyDeleteJust make Smart better - listening to developers, and improving its.....
and Yes, "Smart LLVM solution" well be the second GREAT decision after creation of Smart itself!
I have not used the Smart Studio so far, but I liked what I saw on the site. I think it is best if you guys go for LLVM solution. We need more choices!
ReplyDeleteWell, EMBT haven't exactly acted "friendly" to the Pascal ecosystem in general for the last years, so this isn't exactly a surprise.
ReplyDeleteThe latest Delphi versions added a lot of disruption (many of them artificial), both in terms of libraries, language and compilers, not all with clear-cut benefits, so they're probably on the defensive.
Finally it sounds to me like they fit several criterions in http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consumers/abuse_en.html when you consider the "Pascal market" and other recent happenings... maybe they're actually following the criterions as a guideline to maximizing short-term profits since they know they can't really be considered to have a dominant position in IDE & compilers.
Smart is a direct competitor to HTML5Builder. That is a client side web development tool. You have apparently never used it. It uses JQuery Mobile for the mobile stuff and it produces JavaScript client code and PHP server code. Smart may be based on the Pascal language, but the product as a whole does compete with HTML5Builder.
ReplyDeleteJim Hunter IIRC HTML5Builder came after SMS, right?
ReplyDeleteActually as far as I know HTML5Builder is just refaced Delphi for PHP. That has been around for few years...
ReplyDeleteJim Hunter Yes, we have evaluated "HTML5 builder" (aka "RadPHP" and "Delphi for PHP"). That was one of our reasons for building the Pascal-based tool.
ReplyDeleteHTML5builder doesn't produce JavaScript - you have to code in JavaScript...
Jim Hunter before we started prototyping we had a look at everything. But to be perfectly honest we thought Embarcadero would welcome us - because the whole project started as a "one man war against the death of object pascal", this was back a few years when Delphi was looking to either die or enter the halls of cobolt and the other forgotten languages. I dont think i have been more disapointed in my life than the day when i presented my proof of concept - after one whole year of working from my own home day and night (with daily online sessions with eric over how we should start the RTL and JS output)- and embarcadero was one of the critics (!). That just took the life force out of me to be honest, and pissed me off to no end. This is the recipy of how competing products are made btw.. out of pure spite.
ReplyDeleteAnd html5 builder is, to be perfectly frank, a bloody joke. A re-hash of php builder which is an infant in technology compared to what we bring to the table. The whole point was to bring object pascal onto the next stage, not keep it enslaved to one company. If more people speak object pascal -- that benefits embarcadero because the product was created in Delphi. It's like beating up your younger brother because he looks like you - and "may" become a potential threat in the future (yet that was never the case here, the whole product was created out of loyalty). I have no respect left for embarcadero. And while i spend a lot of time in delphi, Smart/C++/C# is what i use these days. They had their chance in my eyes, but failed utterly to support a good idea. A good idea created by loyal Delphi developers to promote and expand object pascal in order to save their jobs and their investment in technology.
And the worst is that the decition is probably made by some nitwit that doesnt even use delphi.. he thinks it makes good money to bar old and faithful friends from their own table. Way to go guys.. Why shoot yourself in one foot when you can nail both with the same gun. It's amiga vs. the quake engine all over... game over embarcadero, game over.
I dont need to pay through my nose to get android support. I can use smart and phonegap and deliver executables for ALL phones. Which we will probably see embarcadero delivering sometimes in... oh... 2017 if they keep going this way. It would be faster to generate GNU C++ code and have native support EVERYWHERE (yes, including android with the java compiler). I wrote them about this 4 years ago... no reply.. so i decided to do it myself
I am using Smart MS for some time now (and write my own controls in it). So far I really like it. By first, I was thinking that I will not be able to use many many even standard Delphi/Object Pascal features but it seems that even things such as interfaces are working correctly. Connection between pascal code and css classes is also very nice done. Since I am using Delphi every day, I hope that both products may live together and if is possible to be even close to each other.
ReplyDeleteEmbarcadero is now perfectly adapted... to a reality that no longer exists. No one wants the hassle of native code anymore. Code translation with multiple targets client-side is the reality of modern day coding. Their line of thinking was great in the 90's/early 2k.. but its completely out of touch with the reality of today and the reality we face as object pascal developers. You can get android and iPhone codegen's for free at microsoft if you are willing to learn C# or visual basic... free is hard to beat.
ReplyDeleteYou have to deliver something a bit better than php builder to make that worth while. And we do. We translate delphi code to javascript directly with pretty much 99% match in language. html5 builder scores like 2 out of 100 on the same scale
Still waiting for a WSDL Importer in SMS to generate automaticly client code for our houndreds of Web-service. As long i can not fast and easely access my webervices, SMS is no option for us.
ReplyDeleteHtm5builder have one distinct advantage over Smart - using the first I can do a complete, web-server application. On Smart to do so as long as it is impossible: there is no server part out of the box, and client-side ui components are not enough to create any a serious web app.
ReplyDeleteThis is especially sad because, as Eric wrote, using dws, you can create high-quality and very fast web-server which exceeds php solutions!
It's just a dream - the server and the client written in one language, adherents of js reinvent the wheel (nodejs) - and you have a ready solution that you are not using.
DECIDE at least these two problems, and the reasons for the disturbances you just will not - you will have thousands of new users.
And, don't forget about indie developers - 400$ for them - it's really a lot! Lower the barrier to entry in Smart, especially when concurent solutions are less priced (htm5builder) or even free (typescript)!
Sergionn Rad Our goal was to not build any server-side solution. Deploy to mobile device, switch to airplane mode, and run the app as normal...
ReplyDeleteThe lack of server side is exactly why I think of Smart as a complement to the Delphi products. You keep (or create) your serverside solution with Delphi (DataSnap, RemObjects, TMS Aurelius and kbmMW), and create your (Pascal-based) client side web app in Smart. Not possible with any EMBT product. Even if you want to go native with your iOS and Android app, you'd still need to have a web solution for your browser visitors and to support other platforms (Tizen, FirefoxOS, WinPhone, Blackberry, etc)
We have Smart for node.js in the labs, as you know.
Jørn Einar Angeltveit Sometimes, you need to change the goals, which was originally set for ourselves, depends on the situation in the market, especially if you just didn't achieve significant results.
ReplyDeleteIf you was not pioneer in market, it's sometimes useful to adjust to the market. The trend is such and the realities are that the web application will NOT be actively used on mobile devices at least in the next 5 years, And looks like that the future of web will not be in the form in which it exists now.
The rapid development of native app stores confirm that all web applications filed sauce native - only a temporary solution, then everything is rewritten to specific systems. Just understand this, move the vector in the direction of web service solutions and will be the winners!
I'm afraid that pretty much mirrors our experiences. Embarcadero like to think that they "own" Pascal, and that no-one else should be allowed to make a (native) Pascal compiler. Something i personally found rather ironic to hear several years into them licensing and reselling our... well... Pascal compiler.
ReplyDeleteThis from the company who came as sponsor/guest speaker to our conference on Las Vegas two years ago and demanded that DataSnap needed to get equal time to our own Data Abstract coverage...
Michael Thuma I don't care about emb and html5builder - they did't listen to anyone and have made delphi in the deep forest, from which it seems they don't get, but i do care Smart, - and the idea it bring on, so i would like that they did't repeat the fate of Delphi....
ReplyDeleteSergionn Rad
ReplyDeleteUse Morfik. Client and Server part in one IDE and all in Pascal.
This is bad. As i understood, the event is basically the yearly Pascon about al things Pascal, with Embarcadero representatives present. That they now call the shots means Pascon is no longer independent. Whats next, no Lazarus or FPC talks allowed?
ReplyDeleteJean-Marc Kiener, Sergionn Rad Morfik is nice. We thoroughly evaluated that one too, of course. It requires server-side, and the language features & programming capabilities are really limited. Not a playground for a programmer...
ReplyDeleteBarry Staes yes, that PasCon. Very sad :-(
ReplyDeleteJørn Einar Angeltveit
ReplyDeleteWe did a bigger project with morfik. Until Morfik 2.4 you can also create only client side web applications. But unfortunatly it seems that the development on it has stopped. The reason we used morfik was that they have a perfect webservice importer which create code for server and for client side. so you can call SOAP webservices either direct from client or consum it from server side and pass it to the client. Of curse we keep both eyes on SMS, a great tool :-). Still waiting for a WSDL importer ;-).
Jørn Einar Angeltveit you forgot to mention: morfik is dead, a couple of years as.....
ReplyDeleteWho would have thought why :))
marc hoffman Ill use your utils over embarcadero's any day of the week. In fact, i just asked my new employer kindly to buy remobjects SDK for our next project. Hell, i could code datasnap myself..
ReplyDeletewell on a positive note it may have provided you with some free advertising. I was not aware of your product until I came across this email chain via Delphi Haters blog... looking forward to trying it! 😊
ReplyDeleteAdrian knowles That's what we call "The Streisand effect", isn't it :-) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect).
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't think that "advertisement" is what we need most. I believe that the majority of Delphi users already know Smart and it's capabilities, but that they need a push to get started. It's so much easier to explore a new product if you have had a short presentation of it, and it really a lot easier to use it right when you can get some tips from experienced users.
Let us know if you need anything to get started!
Hi Guys,
ReplyDeleteThis blog is in my opinion totally based on a misunderstanding.
The Dutch Pascon is this year in cooperation with the RAD Studio in action LIVE! event organized by Barnsten. Embarcadero did not know about the request of Jorn / Smart Mobile Studio and was not involved in the decision. It was me (via Barnsten) who advised Pascon not to invite Jorn / Smart Mobile Studio. I was afraid it would attract not enough people because the event registration is already open for a month and people have selected their sessions. The request for Smart Mobile Studio came in this Monday.
I advised Pascon to do a separate event for Smart Mobile Studio later this year. This would be a better investment of time for Jorn and more people would be able to attend. That´s all.
Barnsten is reseller of Smart Mobile Studio and we do not see this product competing at all. It are 2 different worlds.
Raymond Horsten - Director Barnsten B.V.
Thank you for clarifying, Raymond Horsten. The main issue of this post was actually not to blame anyone, but to discuss Smart's role in the Pascal/Delphi landscape.
ReplyDeleteThe PasCon issue has been discussed long time ago too, and it was not only about the presentations, it was about exhibition as well.
This is not the first time I hear "Smart should not be present because Delphi will be there", and other users experiences the same thing.
This monopoly-attitude is present, and that's a pity :-(
I've notified both Embarcadero Technologies directly and a few EMB-representatives directly, but no one refutes the allegations...
I hope you're not just "taking the bullet" this time...
So much hype about LLVM, still FPC/LLVM projects spurred 2 or 3 times, and all went into oblivion... Why ? Lack of interest ? Lack of advantages w.r.t vanilla FPC (ans all its toolchains) ? If Smart/LLVM would be succesfull, where FPC/LLVM never got steam - what would it mean, FPC team are retrogrades too? Just curious...
ReplyDeleteThe German Entwickler Konferenz will have a Smart Mobile Studio session: http://entwickler-konferenz.de/sessions/smart-mobile-studio
ReplyDelete