FYI, any customer with XE8 can buy Update Subscription retroactively. They should get an email from the company, but can contact a sales representative or partner. Not sure if this option expires end of June, might be wrong about this but worth double checking.
I think the ADUG blog post gives a rather correct picture of the current scenario. I find the title quite misleading of the content (or just catchy). The direction is clearly to go towards subscription only. The current policy of giving updates and new features only to subscription customers has become effective since Jan 1st, and it matches Embarcadero model for the database tools. But today is clearly the first time this really becomes effective, with the release of XE8 Update 1. And yes, Update 1 has several fixes but also a few new features.
Dalija Prasnikar - No worries. Just doing my usual grumpy old guy routines to keep this community coding centric and as free from business politics as possible.
Marco Cantù You may think title is just catchy, but it rather well describes what you (EMBT) has done. I might add that you have effectively set up the trap for yourself too.
Let me explain. Your desire to go towards subscription is fine. If you think that is the best thing to do for both you and your customers in going forward then by all means do it. Of course, there will always be people that will complain about this or that aspect, but that would be no more than just complaints because you cannot satisfy all.
But there is no way that anyone can seriously look at absurdity of current situation and tell me that this situation is just fine.
Quoting from blog: "We now have the ridiculous situation where somebody who purchased Delphi XE8 yesterday may not be entitled to the bug fixes that were released today."
What is even worse, if I understood you correctly the last time we had discussion about new model, is that somebody purchasing Delphi XE8 tomorrow may not be entitled to the bug fixes that were released today.
You cannot have it both ways. You have to go to subscription model now, or provide all fixes and updates to all owners of particular Delphi version regardless when and how they have purchased it or whether they do or do not have active subscription.
Also, if you do go to subscription model, please have clearly defined and published prices for all situations. Not just how to get upgraded to subscription, but what will happen if someone stops paying subscription and wants to get back on the train at some point.
Marco Cantu What if a user has subscription when XE8 update 1 comes out. Then the subscription expires, perhaps XE9 is released. Then the user decides that it is time to upgrade from older Delphi to XE8 and wants to apply update 1. Will they be able to do so?
I would like a personal version, but I can't afford for it :( If would be possible to pay at least for the annual subscription, I could, but here in Brazil we are a talking a bit more than USD 3,000. Subscription only would cost about USD 1,000...
A couple of comments, first I'd consider a trap something in disguise, hidden, a way to mistakenly get people (or animals) in. Embarcadero has been very clear explaining the situation to all XE8 customers, insisting for buying the Update Subscription. Making is compulsory is not a bad idea, of course, but when we discussed it with some customers, some where saying "we are grown up, we understand the scenario, let us decide what we prefer". I have no objection to that either.
That fact somebody waiting to buy gets a benefit (a better version) for cheaper is a possible model. I think it only gets people who buy initially (and don't get the better version for free) more upset. I'm quite convinced this would be the case.
I think the rule is quite simple. Anyone buying the product with no update subscription gets the RTM product. Regardless of when they buy. Anyone with update subscription gets fixes and updates for a couple of years.
Also simple rule for exiting: the day you stop renewing update subscription, all software and updates released up to that date is your to keep forever, all future updates (and versions) won't be available. If you want to re-enter (unless after a very short period), you pay a new license or upgrade (depending on current offers and the time elapsed) plus the recommended update subscription.
Notice we are not moving to pure subscription, but to update subscription. The difference is huge. If you are under a pure subscription, the day you stop paying you have to delete all software as you loose the license to it. Think Adobe. In our case, you buy and keep your license, and update subscription gives you update and also perpetual licenses of newer versions. If you stop paying, you keep anything you got, you stop receiving more.
+Marco Thank you. I understand. I think many aspects of this are sensible.
I do think that it is a terrible decision to charge people for the buggy RTM version when you have fixes at hand. Perception and customer goodwill matter. Your reputation will take a hit when people realise that you are selling software with defects that you have fixed but are withholding from them. No good can come of that.
The fact that you appear comfortable with delivering the buggy TList even though you have fixed it speaks volumes for your attitude to quality.
As a company you say that quality matters but actions like this say otherwise.
Marco Cantù So I just went to your online store and shopped for XE8. Fair enough you add the update subscription by default, and it does have the information that it's vitaly important (albeit not in bold and red typeface as I would strongly suggest it should be, considering the impact it has).
However, then I went to my local reseller, alfasoft.no, and did the same. That's where the company I work for buys Delphi from. There I could add Delphi XE8 and get all the way to the payment info without any hint of the update subscription or what I'd be missing out of by not having the subscription. Not a single thing.
So either you need to babysit all your resellers, or you include some update subscription (6 months is fair enough) in the base product.
Lars Fosdal I agree, though I guess due to tax laws in various countries it could still make sense. For example, if EMB had no resellers in Norway, they'd most likely have to deal with the VAT handling, which I guess they don't want to.
A light (personal/hobby) version would be very welcome. Again, as a lot of people already says, we don't expect a free version, but for me something like Appmethod...
FYI, any customer with XE8 can buy Update Subscription retroactively. They should get an email from the company, but can contact a sales representative or partner. Not sure if this option expires end of June, might be wrong about this but worth double checking.
ReplyDeleteMarco Cantù That is good to know.
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, you should stop selling anything without at least 6 months of subscription included.
Dalija Prasnikar believe that they are going to do just that.
ReplyDeleteNick Hodges Proof is in the pudding.
ReplyDeleteAsbjørn Heid Agreed --
ReplyDeleteNot a fan of such posts, but I'll let it slide since Marco commented on it.
ReplyDeleteMarco Cantù this is the right thing to do and anyone who doesn't take advantage of that is nuts.
ReplyDeleteI think the ADUG blog post gives a rather correct picture of the current scenario. I find the title quite misleading of the content (or just catchy). The direction is clearly to go towards subscription only. The current policy of giving updates and new features only to subscription customers has become effective since Jan 1st, and it matches Embarcadero model for the database tools. But today is clearly the first time this really becomes effective, with the release of XE8 Update 1. And yes, Update 1 has several fixes but also a few new features.
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal Sorry, but it is blog post from Embarcadero MVP, so I didn't thought it might not belong here.
ReplyDeleteIf somebody buys XE8 today, without subscription, do they get RTM or Update 1?
ReplyDeleteDalija Prasnikar - No worries. Just doing my usual grumpy old guy routines to keep this community coding centric and as free from business politics as possible.
ReplyDeleteDavid Heffernan I think he/she will get the RTM, I read it somewhere but not sure here or on the forums
ReplyDeleteMarco Cantù You may think title is just catchy, but it rather well describes what you (EMBT) has done. I might add that you have effectively set up the trap for yourself too.
ReplyDeleteLet me explain. Your desire to go towards subscription is fine. If you think that is the best thing to do for both you and your customers in going forward then by all means do it. Of course, there will always be people that will complain about this or that aspect, but that would be no more than just complaints because you cannot satisfy all.
But there is no way that anyone can seriously look at absurdity of current situation and tell me that this situation is just fine.
Quoting from blog:
"We now have the ridiculous situation where somebody who purchased Delphi XE8 yesterday may not be entitled to the bug fixes that were released today."
What is even worse, if I understood you correctly the last time we had discussion about new model, is that somebody purchasing Delphi XE8 tomorrow may not be entitled to the bug fixes that were released today.
You cannot have it both ways. You have to go to subscription model now, or provide all fixes and updates to all owners of particular Delphi version regardless when and how they have purchased it or whether they do or do not have active subscription.
Also, if you do go to subscription model, please have clearly defined and published prices for all situations. Not just how to get upgraded to subscription, but what will happen if someone stops paying subscription and wants to get back on the train at some point.
Marco Cantu What if a user has subscription when XE8 update 1 comes out. Then the subscription expires, perhaps XE9 is released. Then the user decides that it is time to upgrade from older Delphi to XE8 and wants to apply update 1. Will they be able to do so?
ReplyDeleteSuggestion: Map out the possible scenarios, and perhaps Marco can summarize?
ReplyDeleteI would like a personal version, but I can't afford for it :( If would be possible to pay at least for the annual subscription, I could, but here in Brazil we are a talking a bit more than USD 3,000. Subscription only would cost about USD 1,000...
ReplyDeleteMagno Lima With Microsoft's release of the Visual Studio Community Edition... it'd still be a tough sell.
ReplyDeleteA couple of comments, first I'd consider a trap something in disguise, hidden, a way to mistakenly get people (or animals) in. Embarcadero has been very clear explaining the situation to all XE8 customers, insisting for buying the Update Subscription. Making is compulsory is not a bad idea, of course, but when we discussed it with some customers, some where saying "we are grown up, we understand the scenario, let us decide what we prefer". I have no objection to that either.
ReplyDeleteThat fact somebody waiting to buy gets a benefit (a better version) for cheaper is a possible model. I think it only gets people who buy initially (and don't get the better version for free) more upset. I'm quite convinced this would be the case.
I think the rule is quite simple. Anyone buying the product with no update subscription gets the RTM product. Regardless of when they buy. Anyone with update subscription gets fixes and updates for a couple of years.
Also simple rule for exiting: the day you stop renewing update subscription, all software and updates released up to that date is your to keep forever, all future updates (and versions) won't be available. If you want to re-enter (unless after a very short period), you pay a new license or upgrade (depending on current offers and the time elapsed) plus the recommended update subscription.
Notice we are not moving to pure subscription, but to update subscription. The difference is huge. If you are under a pure subscription, the day you stop paying you have to delete all software as you loose the license to it. Think Adobe. In our case, you buy and keep your license, and update subscription gives you update and also perpetual licenses of newer versions. If you stop paying, you keep anything you got, you stop receiving more.
+Marco Thank you. I understand. I think many aspects of this are sensible.
ReplyDeleteI do think that it is a terrible decision to charge people for the buggy RTM version when you have fixes at hand. Perception and customer goodwill matter. Your reputation will take a hit when people realise that you are selling software with defects that you have fixed but are withholding from them. No good can come of that.
The fact that you appear comfortable with delivering the buggy TList even though you have fixed it speaks volumes for your attitude to quality.
As a company you say that quality matters but actions like this say otherwise.
Marco Cantù So I just went to your online store and shopped for XE8. Fair enough you add the update subscription by default, and it does have the information that it's vitaly important (albeit not in bold and red typeface as I would strongly suggest it should be, considering the impact it has).
ReplyDeleteHowever, then I went to my local reseller, alfasoft.no, and did the same. That's where the company I work for buys Delphi from. There I could add Delphi XE8 and get all the way to the payment info without any hint of the update subscription or what I'd be missing out of by not having the subscription. Not a single thing.
So either you need to babysit all your resellers, or you include some update subscription (6 months is fair enough) in the base product.
IMO, these days the concept of resellers is more than a little outdated. One webshop, one price, digital download, world wide - would be better.
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal I agree, though I guess due to tax laws in various countries it could still make sense. For example, if EMB had no resellers in Norway, they'd most likely have to deal with the VAT handling, which I guess they don't want to.
ReplyDeleteThey could host the shop through Amazon to avoid having to deal with that bit themselves.
ReplyDeleteA light (personal/hobby) version would be very welcome. Again, as a lot of people already says, we don't expect a free version, but for me something like Appmethod...
ReplyDelete