"The Top Programming Language Index is created by analyzing how often language tutorials are searched on Google.
The more a language tutorial is searched, the more popular the language is assumed to be. It is a leading indicator. The raw data comes from Google Trends."
Anyone sees the cause why Delphi and Pascal are not on the list?
I am seriously considering perma banning people who posts crap like this. Just stop, ok? It is as relevant as posting about your other people's favorite religion in a forum for atheists.
Eli M This is the Stockholm Syndrome effect. Not too long ago Blackberry users were polling the most satisfied smart phone users. Researchers explained that in large part everyone who was unhappy with Blackberry already switched to an Android, iOS or WinPhone model a long time ago so the only ones left are the diehards. On the other hand, some don't want to face the death of Blackberry so the worse things get the more they cling to their OS.
It's similar to another study that divided people into groups based on where they stood on an issue and then had them read articles that were contrary to their position. Among a sizable minority, their confidence in their position INCREASED after reading facts that were against it! This was very unexpected and a blow to those who thought that simply explaining things rationally can be enough to change the minds of vaccine and climate change deniers, etc.
Anyway, Delphi's not priced for those with casual interest anymore. Either you're in with all your chips or you're out. Not too much middle ground left.
Stefan Glienke It's not "idiotic"; the particular comparison in question - who is searching for tutorials to learn a language - is indeed a solid, rational leading indicator of interest in a language. Simply searching for brands of cars doesn't tell you anything about the why the people are doing that search. Obviously a lot of Volkswagen owners are concerned about the status of their cars right now.
You're comparing apples and oranges here. Your argument is dynamically typed. :-)
Lars Fosdal Over on the forums some posters were shocked - literally shocked - to be confronted with a statement from Idera that indicated that there aren't millions of active Delphi users. In fact, one poster here has said several times in the past that he believes Delphi is as popular as Python (which in turn was inspired by statements from other prominent community members) and that it has 2 or maybe 3 million users. In fact, the Delphi 10 press release ran with a three million number, up from 2 the last press release (as long as you're making up numbers, go big I guess).
It's your forum, but I think it's a community disservice to hide uncomfortable truths from this community. When people seriously think there are more Delphi users than C users (and an MVP suggests it's possible) we've got problems.
That's why you get these posts - there's so much denial and "in the bubble" thinking that people just want to wake everyone else up I think.
Heck, I remember being the first to point out in 2012 what should have been a major topic for years: the fact that we hadn't had a commercial Delphi book since 2005. Lo and behold, last week I discovered that a certain TeamBer and MVP brought up this issue on their blog within days of my bringing it up on the forums. Their response? Their argument was that Delphi is a mature and stable product and perhaps there was just no more to be said about it (!!!). Said blogger went on to write two Delphi books themselves, and now suggests that there would be commercial Delphi books but all Delphi authors have realized self-publishing is more profitable so they must all be turning down O'Reilly and other publishers! Another MVP agreed with that reasoning. :-(
When the most prominent members of the community are churning out material like that, I don't think you can blame people for throwing cold water on them from time to time.
I read this line last night: > Every orthodoxy needs a heterodoxy to keep >it from stagnating too much, and every >heterodoxy needs an orthodoxy to keep it >from becoming reckless. >This is true not just for religion but also for >science and for virtually every human >endeavor.
Our community has way too much orthodoxy (including shunning) and an absolute refusal to talk about uncomfortable truths.
An atheist forum would have no problem discussing the merits of any other religion. In America, one popular public access cable program does just that - including inviting religious to call up and try to convert the hosts. I often see "What language X could learn from language Y" talks at language conferences too. Maybe these posts would go away if the community looked them square in the face and acknowledged them. I've seen David Heffernan do that before (have no problem saying the community is small but that it doesn't need to be large to be successful, which is both powerful and true) but few others seem willing to do so.
Here's a reasoned response: 1) This article even gets PYPL's name wrong. 2) PYPL has never tracked Delphi which is why it's not on the list. 3) However, if one does do a google trends comparison for Delphi tutorials, it does not compare well to other languages but also seems to have bottomed out. 3B) This is consistent with my own research on Stack Overflow questions data. Delphi isn't shrinking (any more), but many other languages are growing.
It has no relevance to this forum, which is about PROGRAMMING in Delphi, not the popularity of Delphi. Replace Delphi with COBOL if you have a problem understanding the logic.
To further drive in my nail of sentiment: It is about the art of using a hammer in a world turning to screws. Is it relevant to insist comparing the popularity of the hammer, to the multitude of screwdrivers out there, when the focus here is on how to wield the hammer?
IMO, no.
It's like people are begging for reassurance: please tell me I am not crazy for still using a hammer.
If you need a screwdriver, that need is not defined by the popularity of hammers, but by what task you are solving, and how it is appropriate or not, to be using screws instead of nails.
So, let's focus on How or Why to use that hammer, not on the popularity of it.
Lars Fosdal I'm sorry if this post understood as war or religions to languages, I posted the link because of this sentence:
"If you believe in collective wisdom, the most popular programming language index can help you decide which language to study, or which one to use in a new software project."
Any newbie who wants to learn something new will decide based on articles like that, but this will not affect any pro in the field.
Lars Fosdal There are better targets for perma bans than posts like this, although I'm not sure what purpose they serve. We can just mute them if we wish.
It's not like I am doing it. It was a "rage" comment in a weak moment. My bad. My other comments still stand, though. Don't judge a language by it's popularity - judge it for it's "fit for purpose".
"The Top Programming Language Index is created by analyzing how often language tutorials are searched on Google.
ReplyDeleteThe more a language tutorial is searched, the more popular the language is assumed to be. It is a leading indicator. The raw data comes from Google Trends."
Anyone sees the cause why Delphi and Pascal are not on the list?
look here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Delphi%20code%2C%20Java%20code%2C%20C%23%20code&cmpt=q
Well according to this chart Delphi developers are literally almost 2X-5X as happy as anyone else. "Wow, look at those guys writing Delphi! Presumably they've got the best work/life balance ever known, or they know something the rest of us don't." http://codeofrob.com/entries/evented-github-adventure---sentiment-analysis-of-github-commits.html
ReplyDeleteMaking assumptions based on google trends is idiotic.
ReplyDeleteLook what happens when I compare 3 of the like top 5 car manufacturers:
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Ford%20cars%2C%20Volkswagen%20cars%2C%20Toyota%20cars&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-1
/sub
ReplyDelete/popcorn - want some Stefan Glienke?
ReplyDeleteI am seriously considering perma banning people who posts crap like this. Just stop, ok? It is as relevant as posting about your other people's favorite religion in a forum for atheists.
ReplyDeleteStefan Glienke "Anyone sees the cause why Delphi and Pascal are not on the list?" Are you suggesting it's something besides the obvious?
ReplyDeleteEli M This is the Stockholm Syndrome effect. Not too long ago Blackberry users were polling the most satisfied smart phone users. Researchers explained that in large part everyone who was unhappy with Blackberry already switched to an Android, iOS or WinPhone model a long time ago so the only ones left are the diehards. On the other hand, some don't want to face the death of Blackberry so the worse things get the more they cling to their OS.
ReplyDeleteIt's similar to another study that divided people into groups based on where they stood on an issue and then had them read articles that were contrary to their position. Among a sizable minority, their confidence in their position INCREASED after reading facts that were against it! This was very unexpected and a blow to those who thought that simply explaining things rationally can be enough to change the minds of vaccine and climate change deniers, etc.
Anyway, Delphi's not priced for those with casual interest anymore. Either you're in with all your chips or you're out. Not too much middle ground left.
Stefan Glienke It's not "idiotic"; the particular comparison in question - who is searching for tutorials to learn a language - is indeed a solid, rational leading indicator of interest in a language. Simply searching for brands of cars doesn't tell you anything about the why the people are doing that search. Obviously a lot of Volkswagen owners are concerned about the status of their cars right now.
ReplyDeleteYou're comparing apples and oranges here. Your argument is dynamically typed. :-)
Lars Fosdal Over on the forums some posters were shocked - literally shocked - to be confronted with a statement from Idera that indicated that there aren't millions of active Delphi users. In fact, one poster here has said several times in the past that he believes Delphi is as popular as Python (which in turn was inspired by statements from other prominent community members) and that it has 2 or maybe 3 million users. In fact, the Delphi 10 press release ran with a three million number, up from 2 the last press release (as long as you're making up numbers, go big I guess).
ReplyDeleteIt's your forum, but I think it's a community disservice to hide uncomfortable truths from this community. When people seriously think there are more Delphi users than C users (and an MVP suggests it's possible) we've got problems.
That's why you get these posts - there's so much denial and "in the bubble" thinking that people just want to wake everyone else up I think.
Heck, I remember being the first to point out in 2012 what should have been a major topic for years: the fact that we hadn't had a commercial Delphi book since 2005. Lo and behold, last week I discovered that a certain TeamBer and MVP brought up this issue on their blog within days of my bringing it up on the forums. Their response? Their argument was that Delphi is a mature and stable product and perhaps there was just no more to be said about it (!!!). Said blogger went on to write two Delphi books themselves, and now suggests that there would be commercial Delphi books but all Delphi authors have realized self-publishing is more profitable so they must all be turning down O'Reilly and other publishers! Another MVP agreed with that reasoning. :-(
When the most prominent members of the community are churning out material like that, I don't think you can blame people for throwing cold water on them from time to time.
I read this line last night:
> Every orthodoxy needs a heterodoxy to keep
>it from stagnating too much, and every
>heterodoxy needs an orthodoxy to keep it
>from becoming reckless.
>This is true not just for religion but also for
>science and for virtually every human
>endeavor.
Our community has way too much orthodoxy (including shunning) and an absolute refusal to talk about uncomfortable truths.
An atheist forum would have no problem discussing the merits of any other religion. In America, one popular public access cable program does just that - including inviting religious to call up and try to convert the hosts. I often see "What language X could learn from language Y" talks at language conferences too.
Maybe these posts would go away if the community looked them square in the face and acknowledged them. I've seen David Heffernan do that before (have no problem saying the community is small but that it doesn't need to be large to be successful, which is both powerful and true) but few others seem willing to do so.
Here's a reasoned response:
ReplyDelete1) This article even gets PYPL's name wrong.
2) PYPL has never tracked Delphi which is why it's not on the list.
3) However, if one does do a google trends comparison for Delphi tutorials, it does not compare well to other languages but also seems to have bottomed out.
3B) This is consistent with my own research on Stack Overflow questions data. Delphi isn't shrinking (any more), but many other languages are growing.
It has no relevance to this forum, which is about PROGRAMMING in Delphi, not the popularity of Delphi. Replace Delphi with COBOL if you have a problem understanding the logic.
ReplyDeleteTo further drive in my nail of sentiment:
It is about the art of using a hammer in a world turning to screws. Is it relevant to insist comparing the popularity of the hammer, to the multitude of screwdrivers out there, when the focus here is on how to wield the hammer?
IMO, no.
It's like people are begging for reassurance: please tell me I am not crazy for still using a hammer.
If you need a screwdriver, that need is not defined by the popularity of hammers, but by what task you are solving, and how it is appropriate or not, to be using screws instead of nails.
ReplyDeleteSo, let's focus on How or Why to use that hammer, not on the popularity of it.
Lars Fosdal I'm sorry if this post understood as war or religions to languages, I posted the link because of this sentence:
ReplyDelete"If you believe in collective wisdom, the most popular programming language index can help you decide which language to study, or which one to use in a new software project."
Any newbie who wants to learn something new will decide based on articles like that, but this will not affect any pro in the field.
Lars Fosdal There are better targets for perma bans than posts like this, although I'm not sure what purpose they serve. We can just mute them if we wish.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like I am doing it. It was a "rage" comment in a weak moment. My bad. My other comments still stand, though. Don't judge a language by it's popularity - judge it for it's "fit for purpose".
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal Number of users does not equate to popularity. I think everyone hates PHP, but it still has loads of users.
ReplyDeleteJoseph Mitzen I disagree with your conclusion.
ReplyDeleteDavid Heffernan And it is not always fit for the purpose that it is being used for :P
ReplyDelete