Thanks for posting David Berneda. If you're not sure what to do to be counted, post on twitter the languages you've used with a #code2015 tag. Eg, I posted "#code2015 Delphi C++ Javascript Typescript PHP"
I still use Delphi as my main development language but this year I've dabbled with Python. It's particularly good for data analysis. I think any Delphi developer would find the "Pythonic" philosophy of simplicity and readability to be in line with what we value as Delphi developers.
This poll is very much driven by a JavaScript/web development community. It is not a real assessment of the popularity of programming languages. So what should we do, ignore it or vote for Delphi? I'd say vote for Delphi! Just my 2c.
Sure, vote for what you want and deem correct. I was only saying that even if the data is skewed and not very representative of the entire developer community, it is still better than those who used Delphi last year would vote for it, rather than disregard the vote as irrelevant and avoid voting.
Having said this, I don't think Embarcadero as a company should officially and formally push for all users to vote.
I agree, and it is exactly the reason we don't want to promote it. You are right about C# and C, but it is also true that Haskell or Clojure are also not more popular than C# and C... and probably also not more popular than Delphi.
Marco Cantù No self-selection poll will ever yield meaningful results. Which is why I find it astounding that you say "BTW, Delphi is now 11th, following C and ahead of C#".
These polls should be treated with contempt. It's almost as if you know they are wrong, but if by some quirk they spat out a result that made Delphi look great, you'd want to shout about it.
David Heffernan First, let me be clear this is not a poll we created, started, are managing. "Self-selection" is not the right word here. I know this poll is "wrong" (not a scientific survey of developers by any mean). I told it last year, and the year before, and this year (see above "It is not a real assessment of the popularity of programming languages").
I'm not shouting or bragging about it. But I won't also think Delphi is dead if it wasn't showing up -- as a few dwelling in this forum tend to do (cherry picking the negative only). At times you seem to join the "whatever-we-do-is-wrong" bandwagon. I even asked, "what should be do with this survey? Ignore it or vote?" Not exactly an aggressive "spat results in your face" attitude as you claim.
Marco Cantù It is a self-selection poll. That is exactly the right word. The sample suffers from selection bias because the participants select themselves.
The "whatever-we-do-is-wrong" bandwagon? It feels convenient that you disregard criticism by lumping people into that group. You opined recently that posters in this group should not be critical of Delphi. Why do you seem to fear criticism? If your product is imperfect, wouldn't criticism be exactly what you want to receive?
My use of "spat" is somewhat idiomatic English. It's not an aggressive thing at all. I'm using that word to indicate that the poll is producing output that has little meaning.
On the one hand you say that the results are meaningless. And then on the other you say:
Delphi is now 4th!!!
If you want us to believe that you don't hold stock in such meaningless polls, why are you trumpeting their results?
David Heffernan "You opined recently that posters in this group should not be critical of Delphi". No, I really don't think so. To me the "whatever-we-do-is-wrong" bandwagon is exemplified by the attitude, if Delphi fares bad in a poll it is doomed, if it does good the poll is skewed. Saying that the poll has little meaning and that mentioning Delphi is 4th (and by the way it is 2nd!!!!!!) within that conversation is quite different than bragging out to the world about Delphi being in that position. Taking words out of context makes is not nice.
The think I don't get is we are basically agree on the lack of relevance of this poll, but you keep criticism me for suggesting to vote anyway, for indicating the position the product reached, and for almost anything else I mentioned. Odd. I know you love have the last word... so I probably won't comment further ;-)
You opined recently that posters in this group should not be critical of Delphi
You really did say that. Have you changed your mind?
As for "If Delphi fares bad in a poll it is doomed, if it does good the poll is skewed" I would never say that. My opinion is that such polls are pointless and meaningless.
Thanks for posting David Berneda.
ReplyDeleteIf you're not sure what to do to be counted, post on twitter the languages you've used with a #code2015 tag. Eg, I posted "#code2015 Delphi C++ Javascript Typescript PHP"
We should at least be able to get it above PHP and C++, currently at about 80 tweets each.
ReplyDeleteDelphi was at 9th place last year with 803 votes http://www.code2014.com/ We started a bit late this year, but there is still plenty of time left.
ReplyDeleteDavid Millington Delphi is used far less than PHP and C++
ReplyDeleteDavid Heffernan which goes to show the significance of such a campaign.
ReplyDeleteI still use Delphi as my main development language but this year I've dabbled with Python. It's particularly good for data analysis. I think any Delphi developer would find the "Pythonic" philosophy of simplicity and readability to be in line with what we value as Delphi developers.
ReplyDeleteDavid Heffernan Of course, Delphi is used far less than PHP and C++.
ReplyDeleteBut Delphi users are fanatics, unlike PHP and C++ users ;-)
This is also quite fun demonstration how numbers can be skewed... so go Delphi :)
Daniela Osterhagen ???????
ReplyDeleteThis poll is very much driven by a JavaScript/web development community. It is not a real assessment of the popularity of programming languages. So what should we do, ignore it or vote for Delphi? I'd say vote for Delphi! Just my 2c.
ReplyDeleteMarco Cantù Wouldn't it be better to vote accurately?
ReplyDeleteDavid Heffernan I don't think Marco Cantù implied that we should vote only for Delphi.
ReplyDeleteSure, vote for what you want and deem correct. I was only saying that even if the data is skewed and not very representative of the entire developer community, it is still better than those who used Delphi last year would vote for it, rather than disregard the vote as irrelevant and avoid voting.
ReplyDeleteHaving said this, I don't think Embarcadero as a company should officially and formally push for all users to vote.
BTW, Delphi is not 11th, following C and ahead of C#
ReplyDeleteMarco Cantù "It is not a real assessment of the popularity of programming languages."
ReplyDeleteSince we know that C and C# are used much more than Delphi, it's clear that these results are meaningless.
What its really puzzling (IMHO) is given the huge amount of developers out there, there are so few active in social networks (for any language)
ReplyDeleteI agree, and it is exactly the reason we don't want to promote it. You are right about C# and C, but it is also true that Haskell or Clojure are also not more popular than C# and C... and probably also not more popular than Delphi.
ReplyDeleteMarco Cantù No self-selection poll will ever yield meaningful results. Which is why I find it astounding that you say "BTW, Delphi is now 11th, following C and ahead of C#".
ReplyDeleteThese polls should be treated with contempt. It's almost as if you know they are wrong, but if by some quirk they spat out a result that made Delphi look great, you'd want to shout about it.
David Heffernan First, let me be clear this is not a poll we created, started, are managing. "Self-selection" is not the right word here. I know this poll is "wrong" (not a scientific survey of developers by any mean). I told it last year, and the year before, and this year (see above "It is not a real assessment of the popularity of programming languages").
ReplyDeleteI'm not shouting or bragging about it. But I won't also think Delphi is dead if it wasn't showing up -- as a few dwelling in this forum tend to do (cherry picking the negative only). At times you seem to join the "whatever-we-do-is-wrong" bandwagon. I even asked, "what should be do with this survey? Ignore it or vote?" Not exactly an aggressive "spat results in your face" attitude as you claim.
Marco Cantù It is a self-selection poll. That is exactly the right word. The sample suffers from selection bias because the participants select themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe "whatever-we-do-is-wrong" bandwagon? It feels convenient that you disregard criticism by lumping people into that group. You opined recently that posters in this group should not be critical of Delphi. Why do you seem to fear criticism? If your product is imperfect, wouldn't criticism be exactly what you want to receive?
My use of "spat" is somewhat idiomatic English. It's not an aggressive thing at all. I'm using that word to indicate that the poll is producing output that has little meaning.
On the one hand you say that the results are meaningless. And then on the other you say:
Delphi is now 4th!!!
If you want us to believe that you don't hold stock in such meaningless polls, why are you trumpeting their results?
David Heffernan "You opined recently that posters in this group should not be critical of Delphi". No, I really don't think so. To me the "whatever-we-do-is-wrong" bandwagon is exemplified by the attitude, if Delphi fares bad in a poll it is doomed, if it does good the poll is skewed. Saying that the poll has little meaning and that mentioning Delphi is 4th (and by the way it is 2nd!!!!!!) within that conversation is quite different than bragging out to the world about Delphi being in that position. Taking words out of context makes is not nice.
ReplyDeleteThe think I don't get is we are basically agree on the lack of relevance of this poll, but you keep criticism me for suggesting to vote anyway, for indicating the position the product reached, and for almost anything else I mentioned. Odd. I know you love have the last word... so I probably won't comment further ;-)
Marco Cantù
ReplyDeleteYou opined recently that posters in this group should not be critical of Delphi
You really did say that. Have you changed your mind?
As for "If Delphi fares bad in a poll it is doomed, if it does good the poll is skewed" I would never say that. My opinion is that such polls are pointless and meaningless.