So, Embarcadero, Nick Hodges and Marco Cantù - it gets complicated now.
So, Embarcadero, Nick Hodges and Marco Cantù - it gets complicated now.
The full Windows APIs on ARM CPUs.
You need a single life-time model now.
Will the compiler be ARC or non-ARC this time?
Make a choice and see it through on all platforms, please.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3191401/computers/qualcomm-first-windows-10-arm-pc-coming-in-the-fourth-quarter.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3191401/computers/qualcomm-first-windows-10-arm-pc-coming-in-the-fourth-quarter.html
The full Windows APIs on ARM CPUs.
You need a single life-time model now.
Will the compiler be ARC or non-ARC this time?
Make a choice and see it through on all platforms, please.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3191401/computers/qualcomm-first-windows-10-arm-pc-coming-in-the-fourth-quarter.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3191401/computers/qualcomm-first-windows-10-arm-pc-coming-in-the-fourth-quarter.html
/popcorn
ReplyDelete/sub+popcorn :)
ReplyDelete/tacos > /popcorn ;)
ReplyDelete/yawn
ReplyDelete"Will the compiler be ARC or non-ARC this time?"
ReplyDeleteMy guess is neither...
Dalija Prasnikar /compiler > /dev/null ?
ReplyDeleteIsn't the whole idea about Windows 10 on ARM (The 2nd Try™) to just use x86 code which is emulated by the OS? Why do we need a new compiler?
ReplyDeleteThis "next" ARM-Windows will come with an x86 emulator?
ReplyDeleteWin32 programs will run too -> no changes for Delphi -> no ARC -> no popcorn
zdnet.com - Microsoft's x86 on ARM64 emulation: A Windows 10 'Redstone 3' Fall 2017 feature | ZDNet
It might get complicated if the market embraces it, although we'll be able to support it if needed. From the same article: "Efforts to marry Windows PCs with ARM haven’t worked well in the past, with customers rejecting Windows RT tablets."
ReplyDeleteNot taking the popcorn out for this...
Marco Cantù The RT tablets did not sport the full Win32 APIs. Windows 10 for ARM64 does. Although you will be able to run Win32 apps in the emulator, that will affect the performance.
ReplyDeleteOh, and then there is the story of Windows Server on ARM64.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/08/microsoft_windows_server_qualcomm/
Why do they need anything? They don't support this platform.
ReplyDelete/sub
ReplyDeleteDavid Heffernan That is the reason, right there. They don't support this platform. What does the EMBT front page say today? "Fast Development. Compile for any device". "Compile for Windows, Linux, macOS, iOS and Android from a single code base..."
ReplyDeleteThat statement is already a stretch, due to ARC (and other challenges).
No support for Windows on ARM64 will be a problem. I am not saying they need to be first to the party - but it would have been nice for a change.
There's loads of platforms that they don't support. OSX 64, non ARM Android, Windows mobile and plenty more. And many of those have far greater penetration than the vapour ware in this post. Big yawn from me.
ReplyDeleteOSX64 is a good point, but also a likely future target now that Linux 64 is here.
ReplyDeleteNon ARM Android is practically dead, after Intel has dropped out from the handset CPU races last year.
Windows mobile is practically dead and will probably be replaced by Windows on ARM64 if it is reawakened. Considering Intel is not playing for handsets anymore - it seems more likely that MS will go for ARM64.
The ARM platform is pretty hot these days.32-bit Arduino and 64-bit Raspberry Pi. ARM based cloud servers.
Vaporware? We'll see.
The real dilemma is the two life cycle models which is a pretty solid spanner into the true single source cross platform wheel.
The first version of ARM-Windows has not survived,
ReplyDeletewhy should the second?
Lars Fosdal Easy enough to fix by killing ARC
ReplyDeleteRonald Klitsche The first version was a different OS - a simplified subset. The second version supports the full stack.
ReplyDeleteDavid Heffernan Yup.
ReplyDeleteARC / Non-ARC - I don't really care anymore, as long as I can pick one and use it across all platforms.
Lars Fosdal If that's the reason, why does MS create an emulator?
ReplyDeleteWhen you use Win32 programs, why should you buy an ARM Laptop?
This sounds like the same story with the Android emulator on Windows Mobile ... a different story, same end.
Stefan Glienke devirtualization could take care of the virtual calls... at the cost of even longer compiler times...
ReplyDeleteRonald Klitsche Because an emulator allows old software to run. In this case, 32-bit old software.
ReplyDeleteEric Grange I really don't understand why Delphi isn't continuously building and linking in the background. We don't type that fast, so there is a ton of time available.
ReplyDeleteRonald Klitsche It is chicken or the egg problem. If you want devices to be used at large you need software support. If specific device market share is too small there will not be enough software on the market to attract users.
ReplyDeleteThat is the problem MS is trying to tackle. Previously with Android emulation on Windows Mobile and now with running existing Windows software.
"It might get complicated if the market embraces it" Beat me to it... my guess was that EMBT was going to suggest that it wouldn't succeed so they don't need to support it.
ReplyDeleteIt might be nice to have support for something first instead of last though for once. We went through that with 64bit... unicode... mobile... OS X... and we were both first AND last with Linux... and last with (partial) Git support... last with REST support... Jim McKeith just discovered YAML after 15 years.... we'll be last to type inference too....
Every time we're last to something, those who really need that something leave for another platform. Then we finally get something, but no one cares because anyone who needed it already left. Maybe if we were first to something for a change, people would leave other platforms for us.
Instead, if the market embraces it, Microsoft, Intel, JetBrains, open source, etc. will already have had solutions for a long time and no one will care that Delphi finally supports Windows on ARM. :-(
Dalija Prasnikar "Chicken and egg problem". Not really, there is a ready chicken running since years: Intel & Atom. I doubt, that the new chicken offers something special. It might be important for the CPU manufacturer but not for the user.
ReplyDeleteRonald Klitsche You probably missed the part where Intel is breaking out of mobile CPU market.
ReplyDeleteIf you scrape Intel, there is not much option besides ARM for mass production of mobile devices. So if MS wants to compete on mobile market they have to move to ARM platform.
Dalija Prasnikar targeting the mobile market with a full featured Windows 10? Hm, I do not think anyone will lay eggs.
ReplyDeleteRonald Klitsche Mobile devices are powerful enough to run all software. Especially tablets. Existing Windows software can run perfectly on them even without GUI modifications for size factor.
ReplyDeleteWithout Intel support it will be hard to produce affordable Intel based tablets for mass market that can compete with Android.
People using Windows want to use software they are using on desktop. There are no technical reasons why the shouldn't be able to do so, and there is huge amount of available Windows software out there.
MS already tried to go with limited Windows RT and failed due to lack of software. This time they are playing it safe.
Ronald Klitsche The mobile market is trivial compared to the server market. Users come and go. The enterprise wants longevity.
ReplyDeleteTime maybe to add a new project target sublevel: Platform -> CPU (eg: Windows -> Intel x64, Linux -> ARM64, etc)
ReplyDeleteDalija Prasnikar "People using Windows want to use software they are using on desktop. There are no technical reasons why the shouldn't be able to do so, and there is huge amount of available Windows software out there."
ReplyDeleteIt's not just Windows users. Desktop Linux began supporting ARM several years ago, and the major distros such as OpenSUSE, Arch Linux, Ubuntu, etc. all have ARM distros with a full suite of Linux software ported to ARM. Many people have taken those Android "stick" computers the size of flash drives and installed Linux on them. Plug it into a monitor or TV's HDMI port, use a bluetooth mouse and keyboard, and get a nice desktop environment anywhere you have a screen.
Please pardon my random, somehow related musings:
ReplyDelete0x0) Most consumers don't care about the processor. I have a cheap Windows 10 tablet (complete with adverts). So what.
Android owns the cheap tablet market.
0x1) Windows 8 runs native on ARM. They bulldozed it (although I still build for it). Now they are back. Windows IOT was a publicity stunt of smoke (without mirrors). As a developer, I have little faith.
0x2) Windows apps can run on ARM via emulation. It's not bad on a high end board. Android apps can run on Windows too. I feel like a x86 wrapper container coming. WINE? No, more like beer. Free Beer.
0x3) RAD Studio development seems to be geared to the server market. The survey says they are more concerned with adding support for a dying x86 32 bit Linux market, and not one single question about adding support for the new high end ARM based server market.
0x4) Mobile code is already ARM. Where is the compile button? In add on pack #43?
0x5) With millions and millions of low cost Linux boards and soon to be billions and billions of IOT devices (all running Linux on ARM), RAD ARM development for the emerging Linux market seems non-existent (sans Lazarus and it rocks for that). Why is that? I wonder if Firemonkey is somehow encumbered in this regard.
0x6) Microsoft claims Windows 10 will be the last version of "Windows", and many users are starting to say the same thing! I honestly believe the day of the Linux and BSD desktop (and tablet) is very near. Look at where Dell is going these days with Linux. Conversion to the Linux desktops and laptops may just be one short Microsoft blunder away (and may be called "Windows as a service"). I don't think tablet owners will want to buy into that.
0x7) Android and Apple currently own the tablet and phone market, but privacy and security concerns are starting to surface. One big blunder could cause a mass exit, but to where? Nowhere. Especially not to Windows. I think Shuttleworth's idea for convergence was spot on, the decision to ditch it was bad timing, and Unity was probably not golden goose (but it was all there was). Sad.The idea has a huge long term potential in a possible emerging market of folks that may be tired of owning google spy devices. Then again, nobody cares, do they?
Honestly, I don't get any of it (at all).
Joe [going back to bed]
Quite frankly I have trouble seeing what the brouhaha is about. Unless I am missing something(which is possible) Windows used to have a Portable Executable (PE) format that was designed just for situations like these. In other words, if I am not mistaken, the underlying processor only matters if you are going directly to the assembler layer. Is it correct?
ReplyDeleteAndrea Raimondi no. Compilers generate machine code. That's very much processor dependent. There used to be Pascal compilers that created p-code that got interpreted, much like the Java byte code and the dotNet intermediate code. And then there is SmartPascal which compiles to JavaScript. But none of them have anything to do with the PE executable format. The PE header even contains flags that specify for which processor type the exe is meant.
ReplyDeleteDaniela Osterhagen, the PE format already supports ARM. I think the confusion stems from the misnomer: the executable is only "portable" if all binaries are in. So, yeah, it's gonna be fun times...
ReplyDeleteDaniela Osterhagen Andrea Raimondi LLVM IR is also interesting, with just-in-time asm emision at the cpu target
ReplyDeleteWhat do they need this for? There is already a dozen different brands of 8" and 10" Windows 10 tablets that have Intel processors. You can buy them for less than $99.
ReplyDeleteDouglas Rudd Do these run the full Windows stack, or just RT?
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal Full Windows. Delphi apps work fine without any modifications.
ReplyDeleteDalija Prasnikar ATOM based? Are they limited to home edition?
ReplyDeleteDouglas Rudd Because Intel is no longer pursuing mobile market with x86 chipsets. It just could not compete with price, performance and power consumption.
ReplyDeleteCheap Windows (and Intel based Android) mobile devices were available because for few years Intel was selling CPUs at subsidised prices to penetrate the market. It failed to do so and as software vendor MS needs to move on.
Also MS cannot afford to exclusively stick with x86 Intel chips since line between mobile and desktop is becoming thinner and thinner. Soon enough people will just plug in their mobile phone into a dock and have fully operational desktop computer and for many that will be the only computer they need.
It is not just about gaining new grounds it is about losing existing ones.
Lars Fosdal Home edition, I haven't looked lately, but the ones I have seen actually had Windows Bing edition (8.1 timeframe).
ReplyDeleteDalija Prasnikar Yeah, I've only seen the Home edition too, for these cheap boards. Cheapest Windows Pro version tablets are $500+
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal Well, even Home Windows edition is about 100$, in order to have 100$ device with Windows something has to go :)
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal if you have a standard Windows Pro license you can install it in those, it will work fine. It is not found pre-installed however because Windows Pro even in OEM is more expensive than the hardware in those Atom systems. But it can be a good basis for a storage system, as an atom will run cool and silent, but can still handle large disks. Just do not throw anything cpu or memory intensive at it :)
ReplyDeleteAllows to run all windows server stuff and manage from regular RDP and with better UI than any 'nix derivatives.
Eric Grange - We bricked a couple of Toshibas and Lenovos trying that. A no-brand tablet failed to find it's BT devices. For now, we are using the somewhat more expensive "cheap" tablets to replace some of the overkill and over-priced ($3500+) industrial PCs in the less harsh environments. Anyways - as you mention, the Atom isn't exactly a performance king. Other options would be very welcome.
ReplyDeleteengadget.com - ARM-powered Windows 10 laptops will arrive this holiday
ReplyDeleteAnd cellular connectivity will also be possible with Windows 10 on ARM. Microsoft is also adding eSIM support in Windows 10, so that you wont need a physical SIM card. So, this will allow the creation of Windows tablets, laptop and even desktops with cellular connectivity. So, as you can see, the work on Windows 10 Mobile is not going to waste.
ReplyDeletePCWorld: Huawei and Google supercharge Android with a new Raspberry Pi-like board. pcworld.com - Huawei and Google supercharge Android with a new Raspberry Pi-like board
ReplyDelete