Juan C. Cilleruelo As I see it, you either pay an annual subscription for the right to download updates or you stay on the version that suits you and only upgrade as and when you need. Looks to me as though the latter option is being removed so you will either have a subscription, or you will buy the full product each time. Maybe someone from Emb. would confirm or correct this?
Juan C. Cilleruelo If you have an active Update Subscription you are safe as long as you continue to renew it. For those without Update Subscription the option to buy an upgrade will no longer be available for future versions (not sure which versions this exactly will be).
Edwin Yip Well, that should be obvious: Forcing everybody to the Update Subscription model. I guess there are still quite a few who wait a few (or lot of) versions before upgrading. It's not a steady income stream voor Emb and they apparently want to change that this way.
I think that the subscription is a reasonable method to stay up to day.
With this method, you have access to the last. You can be at the wave crest, but if you prefer, you can stay one version back.
There are moments in which you have no time to update your project as soon as a new version arrives. You can stay with the current version until the next version and maybe more time.
And the price of the subscription is not as expensive.
****Financial reasons after all!**********
When a company like Embarcadero is part of a group like Idera, his managers should present, every fiscal period, the accounts of the company, maybe through an external audit company.
The problem is that the accounts in past time, do not reflect the future of a company. The reports shall reflect too, projections, trends, and so on.
And in this context, the "Subscribers" are a computable capital, and very valuable.
I think that if you can pay Upgrades SKU, you can pay too a subscription.
The great problem can be that the subscription price, instead of be stable or less, as consequence of this policy, increase.
Lars Fosdal IIRC, some Emba sales person mentioned that the yearly subscription cost is about 30% of the full price. As the current prices mandatory include the first subscription year, an update is about 75% of the full price.
Uwe Raabe - You are right. I was mistaken, glancing at a price list, and compared the Enterprise SKU maintenance cost with the full license of a Professional SKU.
# TELELIST That question I can't answer for you. We decided years ago to go for subscription updates. 1. To ensure we were current and got fixes, and 2. To support the product.
If you target Android, iOS or macOS then a subscription is the only solution for you. Because its a moving target, static licenses will not work and they soon become obsolete.
Hans Lavdal Jakobsen Looking at the recent OS updates this can be extended to Windows 10 as well. May be it is not exactly "won't work", but often it is "doesn't work well".
Beyond, upgrade policy change far more important question is whether once purchased license will stay perpetual. I suppose it will, but confirmation from official channels would be nice Marco Cantù David Millington
Another important thing I have been complaining about on several occasions is the fact there is no subscription price listed in the Embarcadero web shop. Besides how much it will cost me to buy new license, I want to know how much it will cost me to purchase next year subscription - I know prices are subject to change, but if there is current price of 1 year subscription renewal, I will have some idea about future costs.
And no, I don't want to contact sales to figure that one out. Since, I am long time Delphi user, I probably will. But this where Delphi (RAD Studio) is seriously losing potential customers. You need to know how much your development tool will cost you long term before you commit to it.
Let me add a couple of comments. No change for Update Subscription (aka Maintenance). No change to the license, all of these licenses are perpetual.
Some background: in the past, most of our customers would buy every couple of years taking advantage of "Upgrade price from previous version" compared to "new price". This was good for last 3 releases or something. It was a common practice (and still available for some software) to have a discount if updating from last release.
Now with more and more customers on update subscription, the update price from the last year version makes less sense. The practical effect is this makes less convenient to buy with maintenance, let it expire, wait 2 years and buy an upgrade "model" -- I actually think this is already more expensive than staying on subscription.
On the other hand, we have often discount and offers that include a similar discount. It reduces the options a bit, but a less and less common option. It boils down to have a price for the license (perpetual) including 1st year subscription, and an option to renew it or let it go and start back anew.
Marco Cantù What I would like to see is retail price stability. My mail box fills with offers to buy at discounts that change more than a raging stock market. 27% today, 50% tomorrow, 35% the next day and our license renews right before the black Friday sales that should be aimed at consumer markets, not corporate buyers.
You sell an enterprise product of value. But what is the value really worth? The price changes significantly by the day, seemingly pulled out of a hat.
I give advice to buyers on this subject (I am a big promoter of your product), and as a truthful kind of guy, I usually have to say "wait till Christmas". That's not a good corporate kind of answer to give.
Renewals? If you put those on sale after I renew, I'm not very happy about it.
The update plan changes too often as well, moving from subscriptions, to recharges, to whatever gets thrown against the wall to see what sticks.
Problem is, nothing sticks.
I hope this change helps to bring some stability to what appears to be a circus promoted by PT Barnum.
Stability. That is something I would like to see from my compiler vendor.
I like the thought of selling the product on it's merit and capabilities rather than the "sale price de jour" and "bonus gifts".
But wait! There's more (:
A solid price for a solid product. I can place value on that.
Know I am trying to be helpful in giving what may be an unpopular opinion.
I am simply echoing a bit of what I hear from your customers (everyday) on why they do not update (and many do not).
Sadly, I have to keep all those versions around to service them. I wished they would update. I do encourage them.
Dalija Prasnikar That's a good point and im waiting to see if they are just milking this product to maximize revenue and letting it wither or if they are serious about making it better. As it stands, im on the sub but am only using berlin and am only using VCL. I have to decide in june if i want to keep the sub going.
I remember when update subscription was introduced and the same people who are super hard shilling for this now were so happy back then. " Finally EMB can focus on quality and stability etc..." and we see the same people preaching the same stuff all over again but the reality is different for most people.
I am happy for those who welcome this change, where I work at we haven't upgraded since XE7 and we have no plans to do so in the future. The future of our product is to move it to FPC entirely, we already maintain a FPC compatible VCS branch and porting code was easy as hell. The only reason we moved to XE7 in the first place was to have a more stable IDE and 64bit compiler, atho XE7 does come with it's own set of shitty compiler quirks we had to learn about the hard way.
Pete if Lazarus supported 64 bit macOS , I’d start porting the app. Unfortunately it looks like the ui stuff is 32 bit only and in the last minor OS X release, they have started warning users about 32 bit apps . I’d love to help support a porting effort, but I just don’t have the time.
Mike Margerum I'm not sure what the state of dev is for macOS in FPC, Personally if I had to target mac (which I don't) then I would switch to Oxygen language from http://www.remobjects.com, it's Delphi but without the neglect ;D remobjects.com - Home | RemObjects Software
Pete I’ve written some code is swift for the Mac so I’ll probably stick with that. Probably easier than porting pascal code with a different rtl and various other libraries .
Finally! (grabbing popcorn)
ReplyDeleteSorry for my ignorance but, what the difference between Update Subscription and the Upgrades SKU?
ReplyDeleteAnd what kind of subscription I have? How to get this information?
Juan C. Cilleruelo As I see it, you either pay an annual subscription for the right to download updates or you stay on the version that suits you and only upgrade as and when you need. Looks to me as though the latter option is being removed so you will either have a subscription, or you will buy the full product each time. Maybe someone from Emb. would confirm or correct this?
ReplyDeleteI read the whole text. Inside it, I've seen a differentiation between "Update Subscription" and "Upgrades SKU".
ReplyDeleteWhat I ask is if anyone can explain what of them have the "normal subscribers".
I'm subscribed since Delphi XE3. Shall I be worried about this final note?
Juan C. Cilleruelo If you have an active Update Subscription you are safe as long as you continue to renew it. For those without Update Subscription the option to buy an upgrade will no longer be available for future versions (not sure which versions this exactly will be).
ReplyDeleteGood news: upgrade from any Delphi revision to FPC/Lazarus will still be possible. ;)
ReplyDeleteIf we can't upgrade from older Delphi versions anymore... Well... They stated: "Go RAD Studio!!!", for most it will be "bye bye RAD Studio".
ReplyDeleteWhat might be the reasoning behind the decision for this policy change?
ReplyDeleteEdwin Yip Well, that should be obvious: Forcing everybody to the Update Subscription model. I guess there are still quite a few who wait a few (or lot of) versions before upgrading. It's not a steady income stream voor Emb and they apparently want to change that this way.
ReplyDeleteA. Bouchez Except that Laz/FPC can't compile my Delphi code.
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly, the Upgrade SKU was about 60% of the cost of a new license, and slightly more than the yearly maintenance cost.
ReplyDeleteI think that the subscription is a reasonable method to stay up to day.
ReplyDeleteWith this method, you have access to the last. You can be at the wave crest, but if you prefer, you can stay one version back.
There are moments in which you have no time to update your project as soon as a new version arrives. You can stay with the current version until the next version and maybe more time.
And the price of the subscription is not as expensive.
****Financial reasons after all!**********
When a company like Embarcadero is part of a group like Idera, his managers should present, every fiscal period, the accounts of the company, maybe through an external audit company.
The problem is that the accounts in past time, do not reflect the future of a company. The reports shall reflect too, projections, trends, and so on.
And in this context, the "Subscribers" are a computable capital, and very valuable.
I think that if you can pay Upgrades SKU, you can pay too a subscription.
The great problem can be that the subscription price, instead of be stable or less, as consequence of this policy, increase.
This can be a grave problem!
If the product scape of our financial scope...
bay, bay.
and "The king has died. Long life to the King".
Lars Fosdal IIRC, some Emba sales person mentioned that the yearly subscription cost is about 30% of the full price. As the current prices mandatory include the first subscription year, an update is about 75% of the full price.
ReplyDeleteUwe Raabe - You are right. I was mistaken, glancing at a price list, and compared the Enterprise SKU maintenance cost with the full license of a Professional SKU.
ReplyDeleteDelphi 10.2 Enterprise 1Y Mnt 1 USER
ReplyDelete9400.00 NOK
Delphi 10.2 Enterprise 1Y Upgrade from XE7->Win/w Mnt 1 USER
26570.00 NOK
Delphi 10.2 Enterprise 1Y Win/w Mnt 1 USER
38400.00 NOK
Hence, if you "upgraded" every four years - that would be nearly the same price as being on maintenance each of these years.
38400 + (3 * 9400) = 66600
38400 + 26570 = 64970
Except - three of those four years, you would not have access to new versions and hot fixes.
/sub
ReplyDelete"Pretty much all other vendors have discontinued that SKU for similar reasons"
ReplyDeleteDid I miss something and all commercial software became subscription-only?
I do not quite understand the situation. I have purchased the IDE delphi. What awaits me in a year when the subscription ends?
ReplyDeleteBTW: Thank you Dalija Prasnikar for posting this info.
ReplyDelete# TELELIST Your Delphi keeps working as is, but you will no longer receive new versions or hotfixes.
ReplyDeleteJoseph Mitzen Can we find examples of the contrary?
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal As won't get? But if error is the fault of the manufacturer? Why we need delphi without getting free updates?
ReplyDelete# TELELIST That question I can't answer for you. We decided years ago to go for subscription updates. 1. To ensure we were current and got fixes, and 2. To support the product.
ReplyDeleteI.e. correctly I realized to count on a new version delphi I can't? This is a brutal conditions! Why then delphi need?
ReplyDeleteIf you target Android, iOS or macOS then a subscription is the only solution for you. Because its a moving target, static licenses will not work and they soon become obsolete.
ReplyDeleteHans Lavdal Jakobsen Looking at the recent OS updates this can be extended to Windows 10 as well. May be it is not exactly "won't work", but often it is "doesn't work well".
ReplyDeleteBeyond, upgrade policy change far more important question is whether once purchased license will stay perpetual. I suppose it will, but confirmation from official channels would be nice Marco Cantù David Millington
ReplyDeleteAnother important thing I have been complaining about on several occasions is the fact there is no subscription price listed in the Embarcadero web shop. Besides how much it will cost me to buy new license, I want to know how much it will cost me to purchase next year subscription - I know prices are subject to change, but if there is current price of 1 year subscription renewal, I will have some idea about future costs.
And no, I don't want to contact sales to figure that one out. Since, I am long time Delphi user, I probably will. But this where Delphi (RAD Studio) is seriously losing potential customers. You need to know how much your development tool will cost you long term before you commit to it.
Let me add a couple of comments. No change for Update Subscription (aka Maintenance). No change to the license, all of these licenses are perpetual.
ReplyDeleteSome background: in the past, most of our customers would buy every couple of years taking advantage of "Upgrade price from previous version" compared to "new price". This was good for last 3 releases or something. It was a common practice (and still available for some software) to have a discount if updating from last release.
Now with more and more customers on update subscription, the update price from the last year version makes less sense. The practical effect is this makes less convenient to buy with maintenance, let it expire, wait 2 years and buy an upgrade "model" -- I actually think this is already more expensive than staying on subscription.
On the other hand, we have often discount and offers that include a similar discount. It reduces the options a bit, but a less and less common option. It boils down to have a price for the license (perpetual) including 1st year subscription, and an option to renew it or let it go and start back anew.
Marco Cantù What I would like to see is retail price stability. My mail box fills with offers to buy at discounts that change more than a raging stock market. 27% today, 50% tomorrow, 35% the next day and our license renews right before the black Friday sales that should be aimed at consumer markets, not corporate buyers.
ReplyDeleteYou sell an enterprise product of value. But what is the value really worth? The price changes significantly by the day, seemingly pulled out of a hat.
I give advice to buyers on this subject (I am a big promoter of your product), and as a truthful kind of guy, I usually have to say "wait till Christmas". That's not a good corporate kind of answer to give.
Renewals? If you put those on sale after I renew, I'm not very happy about it.
The update plan changes too often as well, moving from subscriptions, to recharges, to whatever gets thrown against the wall to see what sticks.
Problem is, nothing sticks.
I hope this change helps to bring some stability to what appears to be a circus promoted by PT Barnum.
Stability. That is something I would like to see from my compiler vendor.
I like the thought of selling the product on it's merit and capabilities rather than the "sale price de jour" and "bonus gifts".
But wait! There's more (:
A solid price for a solid product. I can place value on that.
Know I am trying to be helpful in giving what may be an unpopular opinion.
I am simply echoing a bit of what I hear from your customers (everyday) on why they do not update (and many do not).
Sadly, I have to keep all those versions around to service them. I wished they would update. I do encourage them.
Joe
I’m glad they are moving everyone to a subscription. Then they can focus on stability instead of just shiny new features.
ReplyDeleteMike Margerum I don't think that moving to subscription alone will solve anything.
ReplyDeleteDalija Prasnikar That's a good point and im waiting to see if they are just milking this product to maximize revenue and letting it wither or if they are serious about making it better. As it stands, im on the sub but am only using berlin and am only using VCL. I have to decide in june if i want to keep the sub going.
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal FPC can compile mine since years... but this is because I took it into consideration, and I don't regret it. :)
ReplyDeleteI remember when update subscription was introduced and the same people who are super hard shilling for this now were so happy back then. " Finally EMB can focus on quality and stability etc..." and we see the same people preaching the same stuff all over again but the reality is different for most people.
ReplyDeleteI am happy for those who welcome this change, where I work at we haven't upgraded since XE7 and we have no plans to do so in the future. The future of our product is to move it to FPC entirely, we already maintain a FPC compatible VCS branch and porting code was easy as hell. The only reason we moved to XE7 in the first place was to have a more stable IDE and 64bit compiler, atho XE7 does come with it's own set of shitty compiler quirks we had to learn about the hard way.
Pete if Lazarus supported 64 bit macOS , I’d start porting the app. Unfortunately it looks like the ui stuff is 32 bit only and in the last minor OS X release, they have started warning users about 32 bit apps . I’d love to help support a porting effort, but I just don’t have the time.
ReplyDeleteMike Margerum I'm not sure what the state of dev is for macOS in FPC, Personally if I had to target mac (which I don't) then I would switch to Oxygen language from http://www.remobjects.com, it's Delphi but without the neglect ;D
ReplyDeleteremobjects.com - Home | RemObjects Software
Pete I’ve written some code is swift for the Mac so I’ll probably stick with that. Probably easier than porting pascal code with a different rtl and various other libraries .
ReplyDeleteMike Margerum Dimitry has started to work hard on Cocoa (64bit OSX UI) recently. You are welcome to support him with a bounty: wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org - Bounties - Lazarus wiki
ReplyDelete