I heard that Delphi CE only support local databases, not over network. I assume Firedac is used then. But is it possible with a driver like Unidac from Devart ?
As with the Pro Edition you can use any 3rd-party library you want. Non-local databases with FireDAC are supported by the Enterprise and Architect Edition only. There is no way to extend a CE or Pro Edition to get that (like it has been in the past with the Client/Server add on). The use of other libraries (like UniDAC) is not restricted.
What is this limitation to local databases? On connecting only to localhost (127.0.0.1) or no support for TCP/IP connections to the database server at all?
Jacek Laskowski Some databases are not supported in Pro. Those that are may only be connected locally. From the feature matrix: "Support for local databases, including Microsoft Access database, SQLite and MariaDB database, InterBase ToGo / IBLite, InterBase on localhost, MySQL Embedded, MySQL Server on localhost, Advantage Database local engine, PostgreSQL on localhost, Firebird Embedded, Firebird on localhost "
Lars Fosdal That would lower the feature gap between Pro and Enterprise. To compensate for that either the prices for Enterprise and Architect must be lowered or the price for Pro has to be raised (something about Pro plus the price for the former C/S add on). I agree that things would be much simpler if we had only one edition (plus the CE). Not sure about the acceptance regarding the price of such a thing.
Lars Fosdal ... Especially considering that some of these databases are open source or freeware and can be freely accessed with just about every other programming language.
Arthur Hoornweg Lars Fosdal You both think like me, and like many other people in the Delphi community.
I know that the chances that Embarcadero will listen to our wishes is small, but it does not cost anything to try, after all if nothing is tried, CERTAINLY nothing will happen. So, how about we try something? Please go to the link below and leave your vote. Do not forget to share this link too. The whole Delphi community thanks all the help :)
I will like a free version with everything on it, including Linux, quick bug fixes and prompt technical support. Meaning, its great to get all that, but unless you give solutions, just shouting free free free is not a very compelling argument for per profit company.
Releasing the Community Edition is supposed to bring more developers into the community or at least seriously evaluate Delphi as a solution (longer than a 30 day trial allowed). Some of those evaluations might actually involve what Delphi's major market is...writing N tier database applications.
Without being able to access the leading SQL databases (which are quite often not locally installed), the evaluator is likely to give up, or compare features with other products and decide Delphi pricing is too high. M$ doesn't require an Enterprise edition to access a remote database. Nor do I think any product in existence today....as it is not 1995 any more.
Ok so we all want everything for free. That's understandable. Me too. But somehow Emb has to pay salaries for the few staff they have left, and new hires like Jon Aasenden, and pay rent and but tools and maybe in the unlikely event they turn a profit, pay tax. How do you propose they get paid? If they go bankrupt then everyone loses - employees, shareholders, and us clients. Do you want Emb to make a profit and survive?
Larry Hengen I agree! And mainly the point where you say that the DCE Will bring more (official) developers into the community. I've done a request on the Embarcadero's Jira to review the FireDAC contractual policy. The link is on another comment above. Can you reinforce It voting up? Please, do It! And spread the link. Thank you!
Lars Fosdal The problem is that there really aren't a great deal of truly "enterprise" features in the enterprise edition so they end up considering connecting to a database server as an enterprise feature. If you think about it, even features such as profiling, logging, unit testing, stack traces, documentation generation, etc. have to be added in to some degree via third party software right now. They're not part of the IDE or standard library of the product.
Uwe Raabe "That would lower the feature gap between Pro and Enterprise. To compensate for that either the prices for Enterprise and Architect must be lowered or the price for Pro has to be raised"
Well, the enterprise price is already ridiculous, 7x the price of Visual Studio yet offering nothing that's not in Visual Studio. But you left out the third option - actually add enterprise-level features into enterprise. JetBrains differentiates the "pro" vs. the open source editions of their compilers by adding features such as remote development/debugging, support for behavior-driven development, code coverage metrics and other advanced features.
An Enterprise edition could actually include built-in support for logging, profiling, code coverage, documentation generation, stack traces and all the stuff we have to add via open source and third parties right now.
Going over the feature matrix, it looks like they're charging $2,000 USD more for... UML (do people still use that?), Linux support, non-local database support, datasnap and dbExpress (again, do people still use those?), a single RAD Server license, XML support (really?) and a copy of IntraWeb (no one can seriously still use that either).
Basically, Enterprise adds RAD Server (only recently) and a bunch of outdated Borland-era components like dbExpress and Intraweb. Well, that and the idea that people are going to pay thousands of dollars more to run CLI-only Pascal code on Linux (as if FPC didn't exist).
That mixture of arbitrary "enhancements" doesn't really seem very compelling. They've made a lot of strides adding some things to Pro that ought to have been there (FireDAC - at least locally, mobile development, etc.). Now they need to add some enterprise-level features to Enterprise, or at least bundle all the third party components people need to buy now to do enterprise-level work with Delphi. Maybe the Sencha acquisition and their new secret project that may or may not have anything to do with Smart Mobile Studio will be used to bump up the value of Enterprise.
Joseph Mitzen I think the choice to limit the Linux compiler to an edition higher than Pro has more to do with trying to add to the value equation of higher SKUs, than an appropriate marketing decision. You make a valid point that Enterprise really doesn't provide many new features that today would be considered Enterprise level.
Initially IIRC mobile was also only offered in a higher SKU then and AddOn Pack for Pro, and now it's available in CE and Pro. Why? I believe it's because EMBT saw that they were not getting the traction in the mobile market they needed to justify the R&D effort required to keep iOS and Android targets up to date because they move so much faster than Desktop platforms, and everything in IT is accelerating. I think we will see the same thing happen with the Linux compiler.
If the point of the CE is to get people into the product, and the market is hobbyists, open source people etc as Marco has stated, then not including the Linux compiler is a mistake. What other platforms do hobbyists (read SBC experimenters), open source participants, and general nerds use more than Linux?
Arthur Hoornweg "Especially considering that some of these databases are open source or freeware and can be freely accessed with just about every other programming language."
If you want to cry a little take a look at this page of PostgreSQL drivers:
The ONLY commercial drivers? Those for Delphi or produced by Delphi-supporting companies (e.g. Devart). The whole community is trapped in a time warp from 20 years ago. Go ask a developer who uses any other language if they'd pay $200 for a PostgreSQL driver and watch their eyes pop out of their head.
MSG Endo " Do you want Emb to make a profit and survive? " It's not our job to make EMBT money; it's EMBT's job to make ort lives easier. Maybe they should have taken Borland's decision to heart that you can't make money with proprietary languages anymore? Or listened to CodeGear and done what Jetbrains does - make high-quality IDEs for many languages, so they could make their profit by volume (lots of sales) rather than margin (small sales, huge price)? Or followed RemObjects' example and modernized the language?
None of this is the end user's fault. But everyone else basically IS offering this stuff for free, so they don't have much of a choice. I've watched open source take a machine learning product that charged $5,000 USD in its top configuration a few years ago and bring the top price down to $250 today in order to have any hope of competing.
It's our job to choose the most economical solutions for our problem; it's EMBT's job to find a way to be that solution and still make a profit. If they can't do so, they should sell to someone who can before they kill the product.
Joseph Mitzen Point taken Joseph. But I cant see a viable business model currently for Emb. They have no sign of saving themselves at this point othrr than being supported by Idera,... For how long?
MSG Endo Remember that Delphi is really only a small part of Embarcadero. Its principal product is database software. They purchased Codegear for $30 million dollars. Let's be very, very generous and assume Delphi doubled in value during that time. Idera paid $600 million for Embarcadero and was said to be about the same size as Embarcadero. That would make Idera now worth $1.2 billion dollars and Delphi (generously) worth $60 million, or only 5% of the total value (probably closer to 2.5% if we're being realistic).
If Embarcadero is in trouble, it would be because of database software revenue, not Delphi. Now, it's totally possible that the Delphi product might become unprofitable in the future and they discontinue it. However, the purchase of Sencha suggests Idera wants to double down on development tools even though that's clearly not their strength (Idera also produces database tools).
To some extent they're trying to bring in new customers, but initiatives like AppMethod failed. To some extent they're trying to come up with new products to sell to existing customers (and have purchased several third party libraries and utilities vendors) but that doesn't seem to have had major success either so far. The only business strategy left is, sadly, to try to get users to pay more for the same product.
Joseph Mitzen Good points. But I always thought that to get a healthy business a lot of customers is required. It doesn't matter if most of them use the free product that doesn't generate income from licenses. Just by using Delphi they raise the value of the platform. Just an idea. Many companies use ads in their free products. Would that be something for Embarcadero? 😊
Roland Bengtsson I would love that information as it would help in deciding whether to create a product to compliment Delphi. It's a big investment of time and effort if the market is small and shrinking, so numbers including historical would be very beneficial. I'm sure that existing component vendors would also like that information.
As with the Pro Edition you can use any 3rd-party library you want.
ReplyDeleteNon-local databases with FireDAC are supported by the Enterprise and Architect Edition only. There is no way to extend a CE or Pro Edition to get that (like it has been in the past with the Client/Server add on).
The use of other libraries (like UniDAC) is not restricted.
What is this limitation to local databases? On connecting only to localhost (127.0.0.1) or no support for TCP/IP connections to the database server at all?
ReplyDeleteJacek Laskowski Some databases are not supported in Pro. Those that are may only be connected locally. From the feature matrix:
ReplyDelete"Support for local databases, including Microsoft Access database, SQLite and MariaDB database, InterBase ToGo / IBLite, InterBase on localhost, MySQL Embedded, MySQL
Server on localhost, Advantage Database local engine, PostgreSQL on localhost, Firebird Embedded, Firebird on localhost "
Another artificial gimping limitation. The pro version should have had full db support, as should the Community version.
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal That would lower the feature gap between Pro and Enterprise. To compensate for that either the prices for Enterprise and Architect must be lowered or the price for Pro has to be raised (something about Pro plus the price for the former C/S add on). I agree that things would be much simpler if we had only one edition (plus the CE). Not sure about the acceptance regarding the price of such a thing.
ReplyDeleteUwe Raabe I agree, but being able to access any kind of remote database, can't really be called a high end feature anymore.
ReplyDeleteI'd say Unidac is the way better choice than FireDac. They provide a way more flexible model (and more reliable code most probably)
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal ... Especially considering that some of these databases are open source or freeware and can be freely accessed with just about every other programming language.
ReplyDeleteArthur Hoornweg Lars Fosdal You both think like me, and like many other people in the Delphi community.
ReplyDeleteI know that the chances that Embarcadero will listen to our wishes is small, but it does not cost anything to try, after all if nothing is tried, CERTAINLY nothing will happen. So, how about we try something? Please go to the link below and leave your vote. Do not forget to share this link too. The whole Delphi community thanks all the help :)
quality.embarcadero.com - Log in - Embarcadero Technologies
I will like a free version with everything on it, including Linux, quick bug fixes and prompt technical support. Meaning, its great to get all that, but unless you give solutions, just shouting free free free is not a very compelling argument for per profit company.
ReplyDeleteReleasing the Community Edition is supposed to bring more developers into the community or at least seriously evaluate Delphi as a solution (longer than a 30 day trial allowed). Some of those evaluations might actually involve what Delphi's major market is...writing N tier database applications.
ReplyDeleteWithout being able to access the leading SQL databases (which are quite often not locally installed), the evaluator is likely to give up, or compare features with other products and decide Delphi pricing is too high. M$ doesn't require an Enterprise edition to access a remote database. Nor do I think any product in existence today....as it is not 1995 any more.
Ok so we all want everything for free. That's understandable. Me too. But somehow Emb has to pay salaries for the few staff they have left, and new hires like Jon Aasenden, and pay rent and but tools and maybe in the unlikely event they turn a profit, pay tax. How do you propose they get paid? If they go bankrupt then everyone loses - employees, shareholders, and us clients. Do you want Emb to make a profit and survive?
ReplyDeleteLarry Hengen I agree! And mainly the point where you say that the DCE Will bring more (official) developers into the community. I've done a request on the Embarcadero's Jira to review the FireDAC contractual policy. The link is on another comment above. Can you reinforce It voting up? Please, do It! And spread the link. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteLars Fosdal The problem is that there really aren't a great deal of truly "enterprise" features in the enterprise edition so they end up considering connecting to a database server as an enterprise feature. If you think about it, even features such as profiling, logging, unit testing, stack traces, documentation generation, etc. have to be added in to some degree via third party software right now. They're not part of the IDE or standard library of the product.
ReplyDeleteUwe Raabe "That would lower the feature gap between Pro and Enterprise. To compensate for that either the prices for Enterprise and Architect must be lowered or the price for Pro has to be raised"
ReplyDeleteWell, the enterprise price is already ridiculous, 7x the price of Visual Studio yet offering nothing that's not in Visual Studio. But you left out the third option - actually add enterprise-level features into enterprise. JetBrains differentiates the "pro" vs. the open source editions of their compilers by adding features such as remote development/debugging, support for behavior-driven development, code coverage metrics and other advanced features.
An Enterprise edition could actually include built-in support for logging, profiling, code coverage, documentation generation, stack traces and all the stuff we have to add via open source and third parties right now.
Going over the feature matrix, it looks like they're charging $2,000 USD more for... UML (do people still use that?), Linux support, non-local database support, datasnap and dbExpress (again, do people still use those?), a single RAD Server license, XML support (really?) and a copy of IntraWeb (no one can seriously still use that either).
Basically, Enterprise adds RAD Server (only recently) and a bunch of outdated Borland-era components like dbExpress and Intraweb. Well, that and the idea that people are going to pay thousands of dollars more to run CLI-only Pascal code on Linux (as if FPC didn't exist).
That mixture of arbitrary "enhancements" doesn't really seem very compelling. They've made a lot of strides adding some things to Pro that ought to have been there (FireDAC - at least locally, mobile development, etc.). Now they need to add some enterprise-level features to Enterprise, or at least bundle all the third party components people need to buy now to do enterprise-level work with Delphi. Maybe the Sencha acquisition and their new secret project that may or may not have anything to do with Smart Mobile Studio will be used to bump up the value of Enterprise.
Joseph Mitzen
ReplyDeleteI think the choice to limit the Linux compiler to an edition higher than Pro has more to do with trying to add to the value equation of higher SKUs, than an appropriate marketing decision. You make a valid point that Enterprise really doesn't provide many new features that today would be considered Enterprise level.
Initially IIRC mobile was also only offered in a higher SKU then and AddOn Pack for Pro, and now it's available in CE and Pro. Why? I believe it's because EMBT saw that they were not getting the traction in the mobile market they needed to justify the R&D effort required to keep iOS and Android targets up to date because they move so much faster than Desktop platforms, and everything in IT is accelerating. I think we will see the same thing happen with the Linux compiler.
If the point of the CE is to get people into the product, and the market is hobbyists, open source people etc as Marco has stated, then not including the Linux compiler is a mistake. What other platforms do hobbyists (read SBC experimenters), open source participants, and general nerds use more than Linux?
Arthur Hoornweg "Especially considering that some of these databases are open source or freeware and can be freely accessed with just about every other programming language."
ReplyDeleteIf you want to cry a little take a look at this page of PostgreSQL drivers:
postgresql.org - PostgreSQL: Software Catalogue - Drivers and interfaces
The ONLY commercial drivers? Those for Delphi or produced by Delphi-supporting companies (e.g. Devart). The whole community is trapped in a time warp from 20 years ago. Go ask a developer who uses any other language if they'd pay $200 for a PostgreSQL driver and watch their eyes pop out of their head.
MSG Endo " Do you want Emb to make a profit and survive? " It's not our job to make EMBT money; it's EMBT's job to make ort lives easier. Maybe they should have taken Borland's decision to heart that you can't make money with proprietary languages anymore? Or listened to CodeGear and done what Jetbrains does - make high-quality IDEs for many languages, so they could make their profit by volume (lots of sales) rather than margin (small sales, huge price)? Or followed RemObjects' example and modernized the language?
ReplyDeleteNone of this is the end user's fault. But everyone else basically IS offering this stuff for free, so they don't have much of a choice. I've watched open source take a machine learning product that charged $5,000 USD in its top configuration a few years ago and bring the top price down to $250 today in order to have any hope of competing.
It's our job to choose the most economical solutions for our problem; it's EMBT's job to find a way to be that solution and still make a profit. If they can't do so, they should sell to someone who can before they kill the product.
Joseph Mitzen Point taken Joseph. But I cant see a viable business model currently for Emb. They have no sign of saving themselves at this point othrr than being supported by Idera,... For how long?
ReplyDeleteMSG Endo Remember that Delphi is really only a small part of Embarcadero. Its principal product is database software. They purchased Codegear for $30 million dollars. Let's be very, very generous and assume Delphi doubled in value during that time. Idera paid $600 million for Embarcadero and was said to be about the same size as Embarcadero. That would make Idera now worth $1.2 billion dollars and Delphi (generously) worth $60 million, or only 5% of the total value (probably closer to 2.5% if we're being realistic).
ReplyDeleteIf Embarcadero is in trouble, it would be because of database software revenue, not Delphi. Now, it's totally possible that the Delphi product might become unprofitable in the future and they discontinue it. However, the purchase of Sencha suggests Idera wants to double down on development tools even though that's clearly not their strength (Idera also produces database tools).
To some extent they're trying to bring in new customers, but initiatives like AppMethod failed. To some extent they're trying to come up with new products to sell to existing customers (and have purchased several third party libraries and utilities vendors) but that doesn't seem to have had major success either so far. The only business strategy left is, sadly, to try to get users to pay more for the same product.
Joseph Mitzen Good points. But I always thought that to get a healthy business a lot of customers is required. It doesn't matter if most of them use the free product that doesn't generate income from licenses. Just by using Delphi they raise the value of the platform. Just an idea. Many companies use ads in their free products. Would that be something for Embarcadero? 😊
ReplyDeleteBtw it would be really interesting if Embarcadero released the amount of Licences of all their products. From Starter to Architect.
ReplyDeleteRoland Bengtsson I would love that information as it would help in deciding whether to create a product to compliment Delphi. It's a big investment of time and effort if the market is small and shrinking, so numbers including historical would be very beneficial. I'm sure that existing component vendors would also like that information.
ReplyDeleteLarry Hengen, Joseph Mitzen, Lars Fosdal, Arthur Hoornweg if you can, and want, argue at: quality.embarcadero.com - Log in - Embarcadero Technologies Would be good!
ReplyDelete